Originally posted by Neutral-Thinker:Remember I quoted the example of below average ITE couples....not degree holders.... degree holders would earn higher salaries after graduating if they can find a suitable job (actually double at $3200 per month).... so as long as they have the disciplines to save, there should be no problem.
$3200 x 12 = $38400 + $3200 + $6528 = $48128 minus $400 tax = $47728.
2 person save 50% so savings per year = $47728.
So only need to save for 5 years to buy 4-rm flat.
Guy graduate at the age of 24, lady graduate at the age of 22-23.
By the age of 29-30 can fully own a house if they appy for BTO at the age of 26-27.
That quotation you are basing on are the nett household income of a couple. They need to spread their expanditures and they cannot really save on the full salary for savings. They definitely will not have enough CPF to put that 20% downpayment for that 4 room HDB flat. After deducting their monthly 20% of gross salary, about 60 or 70 per cent goes to their expenditures and finance support to their family (that if they are supporting their parents and the household expenditures if they are hopefully).
Graduates in Singapore average salary now is at S$2400 to $2500 per month. And for ITE is around S$1800 to S$2000. Those without ITE/G.C.E. 'A' Level (tertiary education) are even earning a salary less than S$1800 per month, approximately about S$1100 to S$1300 salaries per month. Those are statistics salaries figure as a whole and not individually. You will be surprised in the job market, many employers are not paying that salary figures to those students just graduated because they have no working experience. This is because they joined the workforce late or very late. They could only afford to pay that 20% downpayment (without their parents help) for a 2 room or 3 room BTO HDB Flat. If they wish to purchase a 4 room BTO HDB flat or more, they need to accumulate their CPF for many years before they could even pay for that 20% downpayment deductable from their CPF account.
So my question here is, at what age they should start work? The earlier the better. Lets say 17, 18 or 19 years old, so that they will have enough CPF to get a HDB flat (but that is not possible because many Singaporeans youth are Paper Chasers; and especially for male, they have to serve full time NS and many even keep deferring that NS because of their studies, and many of them also even fake their NS deferment with an excuse of pursuing their studies). Or the Singapore education system is the cause of Singapore youths to join the workforce and start their career late?
So what age should they start work and save and have enough CPF to buy HDB flat? Or is it, because their salary after graduating from Secondary/ITE/College/Polytechnic/University is not enough for them?
Originally posted by Neutral-Thinker:What I was saying is you must have family planning.... save a lot before you marry.... after marriage burden not so much such that the wife can anytime stop work anytime to have a baby and take care of home without having to hire a maid. 5-6 years of two degrees holders savings at 50% rate could generate a lot of money .
How many people could earn 10K a month by the age of 30? Not many....but $3.2K a month to feed 2 adults and 1 baby possible or not? Sure possible one.
However if you go for matured-estate BTO, Condo or HDB resale, you would have to service your loan for a much longer time unless you earn very high salary.
Also there are optional money that need not be spent like piano and tuition. School fees are cheaper than nursery cost but only for two years only.... Mother can ownself teach kid so no need tutor.
Big expense renovation count it together with flat price. If not enough, work a few months extra before wife quit job to have a baby.
However, if the person and wife did not study hard enough to at least reach ITE level, then they would have to work very long hours to make ends meet (Security Guards and class-4 drivers could earn more than 2K per month).
Originally posted by zulkifli mahmood:
That quotation you are basing on are the nett household income of a couple. They need to spread their expanditures and they cannot really save on the full salary for savings. They definitely will not have enough CPF to put that 20% downpayment for that 4 room HDB flat. After deducting their monthly 20% of gross salary, about 60 or 70 per cent goes to their expenditures and finance support to their family (that if they are supporting their parents and the household expenditures if they are hopefully).
Graduates in Singapore average salary now is at S$2400 to $2500 per month. And for ITE is around S$1800 to S$2000. Those without ITE/G.C.E. 'A' Level (tertiary education) are even earning a salary less than S$1800 per month, approximately about S$1100 to S$1300 salaries per month. Those are statistics salaries figure as a whole and not individually. You will be surprised in the job market, many employers are not paying that salary figures to those students just graduated because they have no working experience. This is because they joined the workforce late or very late. They could only afford to pay that 20% downpayment (without their parents help) for a 2 room or 3 room BTO HDB Flat. If they wish to purchase a 4 room BTO HDB flat or more, they need to accumulate their CPF for many years before they could even pay for that 20% downpayment deductable from their CPF account.
So my question here is, at what age they should start work? The earlier the better. Lets say 17, 18 or 19 years old, so that they will have enough CPF to get a HDB flat (but that is not possible because many Singaporeans youth are Paper Chasers; and especially for male, they have to serve full time NS and many even keep deferring that NS because of their studies, and many of them also even fake their NS deferment with an excuse of pursuing their studies). Or the Singapore education system is the cause of Singapore youths to join the workforce and start their career late?
So what age should they start work and save and have enough CPF to buy HDB flat? Or is it, because their salary after graduating from Secondary/ITE/College/Polytechnic/University is not enough for them?
I quoted degree holders salary based on this ( http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/education/higher-median-pay-for-fresh-grads-last-year-survey ). Poly grads salary is $2000.... so ITE grads salary is lower (based on the fact that only the best ITE grads could advance to Poly level).
Work age depends on when they finished their education. Male degree holders could start as early as 24; female degree holders could start as early as 22....so the lower educational qualification people would start earlier than degree holders. However, in the ITE example I quoted earlier assuming lady starting work at the age of 19 and guy at 21, I assumed they did not fail in school and went to Express stream before going to ITE. I left out those who went through the Normal stream channel or failed in school before.
As for down payment, they definitely could afford to pay for 4-rm initial payment after working for at least 2 years of working if they bothered to save at least additional 13% on top of forced saving from CPF (which is 37%) assuming they have at least ITE qualifications. However, if they do not bother to save or chose not to save, then it would be longer time to pay off loans.
If 4-rm flat is $210,000, 20% would be $42,000....
If we use ITE grad's starting salary of $1600 per month as example, he or she would earn $19200 per year. However he would receive normally at least 13th month salary and 17% additional CPF contribution from employer. So effectively he would be earning additional $3264+$1600=$24064 per year. The tax rates for these lower salary earners would be closed to zero. If he works for the government, then he would earn even more since they receive 3 months bonuses every year.
If he or she saves half of this amount, he would be saving $12000 per year.
So if his partner also saves half, they would save $24,000 per year.
So they would save $48,000 in two years which is adequate for a 4-rm flat downpayment.
However, if they are unable to save at least half of what they earn including CPF (it is more than at the 50% mark because not all money in CPF account could be used for purchasing HDB flat), then they would take longer to fully-own their flats.
However, I assumed that their parents are still working (gave birth to them at age of 35, they are 21, so 56 still working) and do not need them to really chip in a lot for family expenditure and they would not spend a lot beyond required expenditures like bus-fare and food. So they would have a max expenditure of $1000 ($12000/12) per month on the average each.
Originally posted by zulkifli mahmood:
Sorry bro, not trying to be funny here. Majority of Singaporeans are average income earner. How many of them have S$10,000 or S$15,000 saving in their bank account? (Please do not include the credit card advance cash because that is not a saving because when you use that amount you are in debt with the bank)
I am not debating whether they have $10K or $15K in their bank accounts.....I am saying it is possible to fully own a 4-rm flat by the age of 30 if they put in the effort to save at least 50% of what they earned.
Originally posted by zulkifli mahmood:In many countries, especially those big countries and 1st world countries too, many of their youths start work at the age of 18 or 19.
Please keep our discussion within the Singapore context otherwise there would be endless discussions.
Originally posted by Neutral-Thinker:I quoted degree holders salary based on this ( http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/education/higher-median-pay-for-fresh-grads-last-year-survey ). Poly grads salary is $2000.... so ITE grads salary is lower (based on the fact that only the best ITE grads could advance to Poly level).
Work age depends on when they finished their education. Male degree holders could start as early as 24; female degree holders could start as early as 22....so the lower educational qualification people would start earlier than degree holders. However, in the ITE example I quoted earlier assuming lady starting work at the age of 19 and guy at 21, I assumed they did not fail in school and went to Express stream before going to ITE. I left out those who went through the Normal stream channel or failed in school before.
As for down payment, they definitely could afford to pay for 4-rm initial payment after working for at least 2 years of working if they bothered to save at least additional 13% on top of forced saving from CPF (which is 37%) assuming they have at least ITE qualifications. However, if they do not bother to save or chose not to save, then it would be longer time to pay off loans.
If 4-rm flat is $210,000, 20% would be $42,000....
If we use ITE grad's starting salary of $1600 per month as example, he or she would earn $19200 per year. However he would receive normally at least 13th month salary and 17% additional CPF contribution from employer. So effectively he would be earning additional $3264+$1600=$24064 per year. The tax rates for these lower salary earners would be closed to zero. If he works for the government, then he would earn even more since they receive 3 months bonuses every year.
If he or she saves half of this amount, he would be saving $12000 per year.
So if his partner also saves half, they would save $24,000 per year.
So they would save $48,000 in two years which is adequate for a 4-rm flat downpayment.
However, if they are unable to save at least half of what they earn including CPF (it is more than at the 50% mark because not all money in CPF account could be used for purchasing HDB flat), then they would take longer to fully-own their flats.
However, I assumed that their parents are still working (gave birth to them at age of 35, they are 21, so 56 still working) and do not need them to really chip in a lot for family expenditure and they would not spend a lot beyond required expenditures like bus-fare and food. So they would have a max expenditure of $1000 ($12000/12) per month on the average each.
Its easier said then done. Many would be spending their money on their selves firsts like automobiles, motorbikes, mobiles, laptop, desktop, fashion wears, patronising the restaurants, the bars at clarke quay etcs. Some would be supporting their family expenditures and probably their other siblings education. Many even went bankrupt before they could start their careers because of credit cards. If this going to happen the way you see, they really need to be discipline in their budget which many can see are not happening here in Singapore.
Originally posted by Neutral-Thinker:I am not debating whether they have $10K or $15K in their bank accounts.....I am saying it is possible to fully own a 4-rm flat by the age of 30 if they put in the effort to save at least 50% of what they earned.
Yes, I understand. Majority of Singaporeans' main problem is money. They could hardly save money.
Originally posted by Neutral-Thinker:Please keep our discussion within the Singapore context otherwise there would be endless discussions.
Singapore Government and Singaporean themselves usually like to compare Singapore with 1st world country. If Singapore is really going to progress and move forward, the Singapore Government will have to do something about the Education System and NS issue so that the Singapore Youths would be able to start their career at the earliest age.
Singapore has no natural resources and our natural resources is the Manpower.
Education system wise, everyone agrees we can do more with creativity. This is something caucasians tend to excel at, for reasons we all know. As far as i can see, this kind of environment exists mostly in america. It cannot be reproduced in asia for the forseeable future. PAP can buy all the top scientists, but the problem with creativity is that u must be allowed to fail, to disagree, to litigate against the government on neutral grounds, and then to restart again. This again, will never occur here. Once u failed and your face gets published, its all over mostly. There are no second chances, the government prefers to ship in fresh faces as replacement.
NS wise, they can reduce committment to a year by doubling the population. This is already happening but they needed to see whether these new citizens are making enuf babies first.
Originally posted by f1taxidriver:Education system wise, everyone agrees we can do more with creativity. This is something caucasians tend to excel at, for reasons we all know. As far as i can see, this kind of environment exists mostly in america. It cannot be reproduced in asia for the forseeable future. PAP can buy all the top scientists, but the problem with creativity is that u must be allowed to fail, to disagree, to litigate against the government on neutral grounds, and then to restart again. This again, will never occur here. Once u failed and your face gets published, its all over mostly. There are no second chances, the government prefers to ship in fresh faces as replacement.
I agree with you there bro.
Originally posted by f1taxidriver:NS wise, they can reduce committment to a year by doubling the population. This is already happening but they needed to see whether these new citizens are making enuf babies first.
I can see right now and in the future many new citizens or PRs are not really want to register their new born babies or children for PRs...especially the Malaysians. Their children lives in JB but studying in Singapore. There are also many Singaporean males/females married to Malaysians too and their children born in Malaysia. They do not want their sons to be Singapore PR because of the NS issues.
Originally posted by zulkifli mahmood:I can see right now and in the future many new citizens or PRs are not really want to register their new born babies or children for PRs...especially the Malaysians. Their children lives in JB but studying in Singapore. There are also many Singaporean males/females married to Malaysians too and their children born in Malaysia. They do not want their sons to be Singapore PR because of the NS issues.
There is a loophole in our immigration policy. Many Malaysians see it this way that it is better for them not to take up Singapore citizenship but continue to work in Singapore.
They operate within the rules without violation.
In USA for example, after taking up PR status, you have to become an American citizen within 10 years otherwise you lose your PR status. However in Singapore, you can be a Singapore PR until you die.
So if you are Malaysian after considering all factors, you would more likely choose to remain a Malaysian as you could:
a) Buy a property (house or shophouse) in Malaysia for less than 1 million ringgit.
b) You (and your offsprings) do not have to serve national service and do not have to go for reservist trainings.
c) Earn same pay as Singaporeans (or get the job because they are cheaper than Singaporeans).
d) Still be able to buy HDB flat via BTO route if you marry or is married to a Singaporean.
e) Get a headstart of 2 years over Singaporean males ( two years faster for promotion ).
f) Earn more money after factoring what you paid for in additional school fees (during schooling years) during the two years when the Singaporean male has to do national service. [ If he is a degree holder, he earns at least $100,000 in two years and the Singaporean non-officer guy only earns $20000 during two years NS period, he does not pay additional $80000 in school fees over the Singaporean guy]
g) Focus on just studying to get into university without having to think of training up for NS.
h) Marry a Singaporean lady more easily because the Singaporean lady finds someone who did not serve national service as same level as them and a Singaporean guy as two years behind (education, career, wealth and thinking wise). [actually NS also cause another social problem in Singapore that the mass media in Singapore withheld (in 1992-1994 MM LKY delivered a speech about it in Australia but it was not published in Singapore) which is the high unmarriage rate of Singaporean female graduates, I have not been able to find data about unmarried female graduate rates in Singapore from the internet)
i) Have a backup path at home in Malaysia ( if become Singaporean, no backup path in Malaysia ). Backup path as a businessman not an employee (pay too low in Malaysia) as ability to buy cheap properties is a real advantage.
j) Company bosses and collegues prefer employees who do not have to take unpaid leaves of 2 weeks to 1 month (SAF offers makeup pay to companies so viturally unpaid leaves) for 15-25 years. Bosses employed them because they could work 12 months per year not take 2 weeks to 1 months unpaid leaves more than others. Collegues (including superiors) think everytime they go for reservists trainings, our workload increase so much and it becomes so stressful.
When you consider all factors, is it better to be a Malaysian guy or a Singaporean guy? Probably the only advantage to be a Singaporean guy is can become taxi driver if get retrenched but again this advantage almost disappeared with the entry of Uber and Grabcar and could totally disappear since government is taking away tax payers money (including additional $72 million from taxi rental GST and taxi company profit tax) to sponsor driverless car R&D (claimed as driverless car R&D but with the intention of eliminating taxi drivers).
Back in the late 80s (do not know whether they are still doing it right now), the government was using tax payers money to get RSAF pilot instructors to train Malaysian ASEAN scholars and making sure they would definutely get their pilot license in Junior Flying Club wheras many Singaporean trainees would fail (without this guarantee). None of these foreign scholars had to serve National Service. And why did these scholars need Singapore's pilot licenses?
Back in the 70s when I was entering Primary School, I could not get into any of the 6 primary schools that were within 1.5 KM of where I stayed at despite studying in a government kindergarden in the same district. My mother had to make a trip to the district MP's office to get it resolved. What I discovered after getting in is Malaysians PRs got in (I supposed without having to make a trip to the MP's office). The reason why I did not get into any primary school as a born-Singapore was definitely not because I did badly in the kindergarden because I was positioned academically in the top quarter in my primary one class at the end of primary one year.
Be a driver maybe
recession coming, stock market all red since 2016
Originally posted by j007:recession coming, stock market all red since 2016
Originally posted by zulkifli mahmood:Wait until CNY is over. If the market is still weak then anticipate another global economics crisis again…hope its temporary and not worse then the 2008 global economics crisis.
Originally posted by bowah:
"Crisis" derive from a Latin word called "Crossroad". So it mean, at certain time, we will come into a cross road no matter how straight the road is, and at this cross road, it actually give you an opportunity to choose which one to takes, therefore, at time recession is good and full of opportunity for pple to change, otherwise, tiam tiam peng steering, good morning sir, good morning miss,..buay sian meh?
In economy term, anything that goes up and reach its peak must go down.
If you work for passion and at the same time earn a living, you will not get sian I guess.
Originally posted by bowah:Yes, but economy fluctuation is unlike our lanjiao, go up very fast, come down also very fast, than stay down for a long time..sometime, really cannot go up.
At the peak, it can still go up, and form another loop up thru innovation and change, it doesn’t mean it must go down after reaching it peak.
Haha..that is a very peculiar way to describe the economy. I'm going to oblige your answer. Hmm..depending on your age, the penis will go up and down very fast or not. And when you already too old, the penis will have diffifculties in erection and many too their penis never go up again. They take viagra to do that. Maybe in the future, Scientists and Surgeons will find a way to have a penis transplant.
I tell you this joke ok.
There was a man. He has difficulties in getting his penis to erect and his wife is getting tired of his inability to have sex with her. So he went to see a doctor. The doctor said he has a device when inserted into his penis he has no problem having a full erection. But he can only use it 6 times. All he has to do is to say "Pip-Pip" to erect his penis and say another "Pip-Pip" to bring his penis down. So he agreed with the doctor and have that device inserted into into his penis.
So when the man reach his home in the late evening, he saw his wife in the living room and carry her quickly to their bedroom, place her on the bed and he got undress quickly in the dark. He cannot wait to have sex with his wife and satisfy her sex desires.
Then he said, "Pip-PiP". And true enough he can feel his penis has full erection and he feels excited. But then suddenly, a car passby outside their house and horn "Pip-pip". His penis went down quickly.
Frustrated with that car driver, he said "Pip-Pip" and it went up again. And again another car horn "Pip-pip" outside their house because the road is busy with traffic. His penis go down again.
This time he was so angry and frustrated, he yells "Pip-pip". He quickly jump over his wife to have sex with her and then his wife asks, "What is this Pip-pip business?".
"At the peak, it can still go up, and form another loop up thru innovation and change, it doesn’t mean it must go down after reaching it peak."
Innovation and change is for long term process. While in the progress of trials and errors through innovation and change, the short term economy process will definitely face downhill. It is difficult for Singapore to stabilize and maintain while awaiting for innovation and change to work...like the Government usually say, "Singapore is going through economics restructuring". How long that driveless vehicles are going to be on the roads of Singapore and becomes a successful projects. How long will it takes for Singapore to become a smart city?
Singapore has no natural resources and food resources. Singapore open economy is controlled by other countries. Singapore rely so much on import goods.